So Plunge, do you mean to tell me that Japan is 100% responsible for all things that are wrong in Japan/Korea relations right now? Even if Japan was to “take responsibility for past actions” (which it has and I’ve explained about 5 times for every Dollar Japan has paid to Korea (5×800million=a whole freekin’ lot)) the fact that the President of South Korea is a lame duck who creates a false enemy in Japan only to cover his own ass wont change, and relations won’t improve. Poor relations are the best thing that ever happened to Roh. He’s managed to manipulate the general population of Korea into thinking everything is a matter of pride and emotion. And when pride and emotion get involved, logic goes right out the window, and that is the current state of South Korean politics.

[...] UPDATE: Across the East Sea, Japundit’s Ampontan and Darin comment on this whole mess. [...]

nagoya_canuck: If I might beg to differ:
Facing the past with honesty is hard to do but it shows national maturity. Japan is not at that stage yet. As a disclaimer, France is not at that stage yet either, they are still trying to deal with collaborating with Nazi Germany. One of the argument that irks me the most in Japan is “Haven’t we been sorry for long enough?” Is there a time limit on remorse? Do you just forget about the past and start pushing your neighbors around again? Japanese companies are very effective at staging very sincere looking apologies for the media. Japan as a nation has not realized (or doesn’t feel it necessary) the importance of showing the same sincerity to its neighbors.

I don’t know many nations that show the maturity to look at their history with 100 percent honesty. And at any rate, for how long must bilateral relations depend on one party showing sincere reflection upon its past? As far as I know, the United States has never apologized to Mexico for beating the shit of them and stealing half their country, but Mexican presidents do not predicate Mexico’s relationship with the United States upon sincere reflection and public apologies from U.S. leaders. And I don’t believe the Japanese are looking to forget history and begin pushing around their neighbors ala the Sino-Chinese War, but rather they are tired of demands from China and Korea–two nations that are not exactly honest about their own histories (and, at least in the case of China, its present)–that Tokyo accept their views of Japan’s 20th century history if the states involved are to enjoy normal relations in the 21st century. Even Seoul mayor Lee Myung-bak, a likely presidential candidate in 2007, commented that bitching about history is probably not the most productive way to make use of your diplomatic efforts. I’d also imagine Tokyo is tired of its neighbors raising historical issues either as a means to win concessions from Japan in other sectors or score political points at home, but that’s another story entirely.

Japan refuses to face its past and take care of the wrongs committed. Instead, it puts war criminals into the highest positions in government, reveres war criminals in shrines, alters textbooks, makes hypocracy filled ‘apologies’, and the list goes on.

There are war criminals in the highest positions of government? Or are you talking about right after WWII when Japan was under the US occupation?

Also, if the apology by the Prime Minister doesn’t count as an apology, does that mean a “private” shrine visit doesn’t either? (I’m not pro-shrine, just wondering).

And textbooks… exactly where in the world are textbooks chosen by popular consensus? The textbook publishers in the US self-censor themselves to cater to political interests in Texas and California. Luckily, those two states are usually on opposite ends of the political spectrum, so a sort of balance is maintained there.

Realistically, it’s in a state’s best interests to inculcate patriotism in a child early on. Obedience and fealty to the authority of the state is necessary to maintenance of the status quo. Facts and critical thinking lead to skepticism and loss of authority. Why do you think we had to say the pledge of allegiance when we were kids? My history textbooks had almost nothing on the American war in Vietnam. In fact, I believe it was labeled the “Vietnam Conflict.”

“Just because I’m paranoid it doesn’t mean I’m not right.”

Anyway, here’s an interesting article for you.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7812

“Voices of the far-right are loud in Japan, but they do not represent the whole Japanese population. On the other hand, Korean nationalism is quiet and not provocative, but is supported by a thick layer of Korea historians”

I’m not quite sure what he means by “quiet and not proacative” in regards to Korean nationalism. Maybe he means it fails to provoke?

I would agree with much of what you say except that Japan has almost made an art form of thier resistance to atoning for past crimes. It is really nauseating.

I must ask, which is more naseating: Japan’s insistence upon the 1965 document in which reparations were paid/loaned in all but name, or America’s lack of memory on what it has wrought throughout the world? And who do you really think pushed the two long time archrivals to meet and negotiate, let alone agree to the 1965 accord in the first place, considering that 1965 was right in the heart of the Cold War and the beginning of our increased involvement in Vietnam? And one last thing: When have you ever heard a US official insist to the Japan gov’t that they needed to make real strides in repairing their relations with S. Korea, and that it needed to start with a German-style assessment of their role in the war?

Japan certainly has its issues, and I’d certainly say that it resembles more the corrupt, PRI-era Mexico (albeit, with more money) than any mature Western democracy, which makes extracting concessions on this issue nearly impossible (Just as S. Korea politicians use nationalism to their political advantage, so does the LDP).

However, there has always been one nation that’s had plenty of both carrots and sticks to be able to force Japan down the right path. That nation has not done so, out of the geopolitical conveniences of the Cold War, and out of alienating one of its largest debt owners. And as far as I can see, that nation has been largely silent, even as the Cold War is but a historical curiosity and even as other nations take on more of our debt.

Unless confronted by the true evil of the atrocities, as the Germans were, or under extraordinary circumstances (e.g. the South African process of reconciliation), or sanctioned by the powerful, nations are not prone to real self-analysis that puts them in a disturbing and negative light. This is the reality. What you are pushing for, is fantasy.

Godwinned by the fourth comment with the Nazi reference. But seriously, nothing Japan could ever say or do will ever appease China or South Korea. Political leaders in Beijing and Seoul would simply smell blood in the water like the sharks they are and move in for the kill, demanding more and more. Which shows the real motivation of cold, calculating politics rather than real, honest reconciliation.

Also in the US, textbooks are usually chosen by individual school districts, whereas in Japan, I believe the textbooks are the same whether you are in Sapporo, Tokyo or Fukuoka.

I may be mistaken but I think I’ve heard otherwise. Are you saying that you think every school in Japan has those new, “revised” textbooks? Don’t schools actually pick which text they’d like to use? And can anybody confirm this?

Duly noted, though I wanted to make sure whether that was the case or not. Looks like it’s just as I remember so far.

I am with Plunge. Although all these sometimes violent protests in South Korea and China are appalling and for certain people are misled, over all if you just visit the Yasukuni shrine area in Tokyo it just makes me want to throw up.
It is not the fact that Koizumi should not be allowed paying tribute to the war dead, but it is the message which comes across with it.
Just take a look at the Yasukuni museum on the shrine grounds. Even if you cannot read Japanese just the English explanations are an insult to someone’s brain and more over history.
A prime minister is never a “private” person. His visits to this shrine are showing to Japan’s neighbours that all apologies are not really meant like that. The message of these visits in conjunction with this private run museum is: “Well, we failed last time, but maybe…”
Just take a look at the webpage of the Yasukuni shrine and better the Flash of the museum, which starts off with “The thruth of modern Japanese history is restored.”

edge

Are we discussing the US or Japan? Japan is a big boy, they can make their own decisions and live by the decisions they make.

Yes, and the decision they have made thus far on their own is to ignore WW2 and their role in it. My argument is that the 1965 document wouldn’t even exist had it not been for our “interference”, and that the US holds enough power over Japan (witness “SDF” deployment to Iraq despite widespread public opposition to our intervention there), that we could’ve pushed them to it, but haven’t despite our similar (although belated) efforts in ensuring that the Holocaust is not forgotten. The fact is we, in the postwar era cared more about Europe than Asia. This can be seen in how we view the Nuremburg trials vs the Tokyo trials (and the relative disparity of sentences therein), and how we support Israel (and implicit in that is that Germany must make amends and must keep to its program of contrition).

The fact of the matter is though that Germany continues to do what many would consider to be proper in confronting what was done in the past. Far past the time when any other nation could interfere and force the issue.

If you buy into the myth that is the perfection of German contrition, you will miss things that would still stir righteous outrage. Keep in mind that right-wing German politicians do exist, there are just laws forbidding them from praising the Nazis. Yes, they are light years ahead of Japan on this measure. They have chosen to indoctrinate in their citizens a sense of contrition. This is the key thing that Japan hasn’t done, and I dare say, it’s far too late to start now, the brainwashing is already done.

So, do you disagree we could have done something, especially since we were the occupiers of Japan, and we knew the extent of the crimes they had committed? The decisions we made, to paper over the atrocities that we knew about, to not annihilate the cult of the Emperor, these are things we, the United States, consciously did in order to create a Japan that would serve us during the Cold War. We could’ve struck while the iron was hot, but we chose not to in favor of “stability” and creating an asian bulwark in the east versus Stalin.

You seem particularly dismissive of our role, but make no mistake, we were in far greater control over Japan, and had significant influence on shaping what it now is and how it relates to Korea and China. In short, we chose to create a Japan that would serve us in the Cold War (and beyond, we say, “jump” and Japan answers, “donogurai takaku desuka?”) We chose to focus on Europe and its rebuilding. We chose to hang the Nazis, because we felt as Europeans they should’ve known better than the Asian “savages”.

We continued to choose to ignore Japan and the statements made by the idiots who seemingly weren’t convinced they had lost the damn war they started. We never applied pressure to change Japanese behavior when we could have. The only part of the US that’s ever called attention to Japan’s failure to apologize has been our media and some of our citizens.

Those in power in Japan are far too indoctrinated in the denial program, far too linked to nationalists to ever listen to China or Korea no matter how big either gets (and they have both since passed the point where they are “emerging” economics). The call for change has to come from the US, from the Koreans and Chinese who are here, to use the influence they aren’t using. I’m convinced the Koreans will act first, they are more unified, and already are starting to wield some of their political power (albeit mainly to gain economic benefit).

And this is upsetting to the Koreans because….? So a Japanese internal document with a less than flattering analysis on Korean affairs was leaked to the press. What did they expect it to say? I’m willing to wager that similar internal analyses from Korea are just as critical, if not more so, of Koizumi and the current state of relations between the two countries.

nagoya_canuckさん、

日本とナチを一緒にするのは間違いだと思います。ナチは戦争や植民地支配に関係なく、ユダヤ人や同性愛者といった特定の民族やマイノリティーをこの世から抹殺する国家政策をもっていました。日本は当時、朝鮮人や中国人に対して同じような政策は行っていません。比べるならば、過去の欧米諸国の侵略や植民地支配であり、その後の被害国への賠償や謝罪が日本に比べてどれほど真摯に行われたかです。私の知る限り、欧米諸国の中でアジアやアフリカの元植民地に日本より真摯に謝罪や賠償をしている国は無いようです。

Maybe I’m a pessimist, but I think that’s an overly optimistic statement. I don’t think James Lowell would have sold so many books if that was true.

I would agree that our textbooks are generally myopic, politically-correct wastelands of bland uselessness. I disagree that the worst Japanese history textbooks are on par with our imbecilic offerings.

this sounds anecdotal and wrong. especially since the US directed Japanese reconstruction during the allied occupation.

I will admit it’s anecdotal, being that it describes the experience of my mother’s education and her surprise that my younger brother’s textbooks included a more expansive mention of WW2. I don’t think it’s wrong. We probably did attempt to implement a more US-friendly curricula while we were there, but it seems that it disappeared by the time my mother went through school.

My high school texts had nothing about those subjects (admittedly, my high school sucked). If I remember correctly, the public consciousness about the subject in a primary education setting didn’t really exist until the early 90s, spawned by films such as Rambo and Platoon.

Hey, Platoon might’ve been better than most high school classes on the subject What I noticed during most US history classes (and I went to school in California) was that often the 20th Century got pretty short shrift. But I definitely do remember we covered Watergate and Vietnam, both in the the HS textbook I had.

Textbooks in the US are chosen from what’s available, which are subject to the preferences of the California and Texan boards. So basically it amounts to the same thing.

The Ministry of Education in Japan approves a paltry handful of texts (in the link posted above, I think they approved 7 or 8 including the very controversial one). In the US, California and Texas (and Florida) hold considerable clout (scroll down to the “Cruelest Month” section) mainly by virtue of their education budgets. While the nation ends up with crap textbooks thanks to cranks on both the left and the right taking a big crap on the books during the review processes in Texas and California, at least there is a process where you can give your own crap input. This is the big difference. Sure, it’s kind of theoretical at this point, thanks to consolidation of the publishing houses to just a handful. But at least our process produces inoffensive, bland, PC crap (crap in, crap out). Who knows how the Ministry of Education creates their list? Having a text that is basically a denial of atrocities making their certified list indicates the process is not open for scrutiny.

i think this is just another ploy to keep koreans’ minds off other… more important issues. they are avoiding other topics, and preying on the ignorance of the masses, just so they can evade criticism. it is well known that politicians are shiesty…mo fos. the korean government is notorious for that. no wonder why the debates mostly end in fist fights.

Don’t get me wrong, in no way am i condoning japan’s actions. The document in question just further proves their lack of sincerity. don’t have any idea as to how corrupt the japanese government is, but i know it can’t be better than any other country.

i see this whole issue as bullying. china, japan, and korea, all have this stupid notion of justice, that does nothing but impede of progress. with the rise of korea and china’s economy, for the first time after the 20th century, they have a voice, as well as the power to back it up. so like a school kid that was being picked on, but makes friends with a newer, stronger kid, they’re gonna take full advantage, and treat the bully twice as worse. it’s just childish.

i think my analogy fits pretty well. the bully, by no means, deserves any sympathy for his actions, but that makes the kid with the new found power, just, or even worse. He at least should be able to understand the pain and anguish that he went through, and show some compassion, but… eh.

reason why i’m harping on about korea, is cus i expected more from my people. like my dad taught me, “look in the mirror before you throw stones.”
hate to sound condescending, but he also said, ” get what’s owed to you,” in that aspect, the japanese white-washing their history books, and trying to make themselves look like the, “savior of asia,” is just a load of crap.

history is important in any culture. the reason why, is to know where we came from, what struggles we overcame, give oneself a sense of identity, and most importantly, not to commit the same mistakes as our ancestors. just as the iraqis’ will never consider americans as their, “saviors,” neither will anyone in asia.

if i think about it, japan and america has a lot of similarities. not much of the good, but most of the bad.

muck, As far as I know, only the JoongAng Ilboan claims to have read the alleged internal document. And no one has confirmed that it was actually the Japanese Foreign Ministry document. The Korean government is officially protesting against Japan without verifying the fact. It’s absurd.

I dont hate Japan,but when the Japanese and the Japanese and their apologists try to white-wash their history I find it patently offensive and comparing to other injustices does not flatter Japan’s brutal history. In fact, it only shows how much more horrible Japan’s occupation was compared to other colonists.

“…when your ancestors decided to go on a colonial adventure they were not so kind to the other nations they conquered.”

Which has absolutely nothing to do with 99% of the people alive today. The Japan you talk about no longer exists.

Bite the bullet and accept it.