I call it a “westernization” of Japan

I call that a bit harsh. Seems a way to duck responsibility for the fact.

At the news I heard the game was unlucky for Kyoko Hamaguchi because the referee didn’t review the video. ( After the game the supervisor admitted the judgment had been a mistake. ) Because Japan Woman Wrestling team is strong (as exceptional as Judo), it’s sometimes hard for them to accept defeat. Also Kyoko and her passionate father Animal Hamaguchi pair is famous for such ” crying and exciting ” emotional temperament in the competition. You can’t generalize it for most athletes in Japan.

I think there are apparently two different factors involved about the incident of sports competition. The first one is of course the attitude of the athlete about the judgment and the result. The second one is the nationalism of the media (and supporters). In any country this can be quite ludicrous from the third observer point of view. I assume that sports ado is quite a universal phenomenon. You can give thousands of examples.

But as this post suggests Japanese people have difficulties in controlling their emotions in severe situations. You see those scenes here and there. I’m sometimes Upset about that. ( Sigh.)

Not all Japanese athletes act like the Hamaguchi family and I don’t think that was the point of the letter. However, I do think that there is a lot a blame gaming and finger pointing when Japanese athletes do not emerge victorious in certain events they are expected to win.

Often the reasons cited for poor performances by favorite athletes or teams are: the size of the opponents, extreme heat (ignoring the fact that all the competitors have to endure the same), injury, poor officiating, bias, etc.

During the recent athletics competitions in Osaka, the poor showings of certain Japanese athletes who, it had been reported, were sure to win medals, were explained away as being due to training schedules that are finely tuned to peak (and achieve certain victory) in Beijing next year. . . As if none of the other competitors or nations who showed up at Osaka are giving any thought at all to the Olympics.

[...] Japan a bunch of sore losers? [...]

To call it the “Westernisation of Japan” is to not be specific enough.

The British countries always had the tradition of “Play the game for the games sake, be a good sport”. In my childhood, if one single spectator in the school crowd booed anyone on the field, called abuse at the coach, or any other example of bad sportsmanship, all hell would break loose. The ref, and BOTH the coaches, would make a point of having that person evicted from the field, and what is more, both teams would feel that their honour had been damaged.

Fights happened, but you could be perfectly sure that your own team-mates would stop you, and be angry with you for being a bad sport.

At the level of adult sport, it was simply unthinkable, unheard of, for someone to boo from a crowd.

At the national level, if someone was to be a bad sport on the field, and this covered egotistic self lauding crap as much as attacks of the opponent, they would kiss good bye to their position representing our country.
I lived in Papaua New Guinea, Australia, Fiji, and Samoa, and exacly the same ideal was held to.

Until the generation that was born in the 60s came of age to play sport. The generation that had been educated through increased exposure through television on the “American virtues” of egotism, partisan support of TEAMS instead of SPORTS, winning at any cost, the self instead of the team, “If you don’t win you are nothing”, Performance Enhancing, and all the rest. The generation that had coaches who had been to America to learn how “The big boys” approached sport.

It isn’t the westernisation of sport at all. The fault comes from one place.

I must echo Tigger’s remarks. The fault indeed seems to be rooted in one country, the very same country that has held the most powerful sway over Japan for the last 60-odd years.

Even my beloved ice hockey, which was once played by amatuers and pros alike for the sheer love of the game has been tarnished by administrative and financial domination of one country, and expansion into lucrative markets in the South of said country, rather than focusing on the base in the North.

Actually, Mike, that is precisely the reason I dislike any sporting event that pits one country against another.

Sorry causing trouble. Actually my comment was intended as a satirical joke, but I couldn’t find the smile mark.

But anyway, although I agree to some degree with the Daily Yomiuri article, I don’t like the over categorizing simplistic tone or comments as if it is a Japan proper problems or a problem of the Japanese people.

If such over categorizing and simplistic tone is legitimate, I don’t know why over categorizing the whole influence to Japanese sport industry (commercialism, professionalism, concept of fair play etc) as “western” should be allowed (“sports” itself is a western concept). Thus a (failed) satirical comment.

I think that all comments, be it by experts (Japanese and non-Japanese included) or amateurs, who try to explain sports with national characters or nationality is bogus.

The “Japanese” have to learn fair play, they don’t know it + “tradidionaly” they supposed to learn how to be humble and be a good looser in Sumo ( who believes that today?) = it must be “western” influence that the “Japanese” today don’t know how to accept defeat, all is bogus.

You are not speaking accurately, when you say my comment is as bogus as the initial one.

Oh, I don’t know. . . Saying something like, “We all are now such poor sports – And it’s all your fault!” sounds pretty bogus to me no matter who the “we” and the “you” are.

As I said: Fair play, team play, good sportsmanship, how you play the game, and all of that was very much part of the U.S. culture as well up until around the 1960’s. I can attest to this with confidence because that was the culture in which I grew up.

What possible need does [Tiger Woods] have to clench his fist, bare his teeth, and snarl at the camera when he wins, to unbegrudged admiration from one and all? Jack Nicolas never did anything so repulsive.

I totally agree. And as my golf buddy, Mr. Pink, will attest, I also find such behavior repulsive. The people cheering such behavior do not represent me.

The world has changed folks. Sports are no longer the province of elites and their usage of manners to keep out the masses and corrupting money (they didn’t need it). If anything has changed the game, it’s not one country or any country’s culture. It’s the expanded player base, the influx of massive amounts of money and the changing nature of media (i.e., internet, 24/7 specialized tv channels).

Or you could blame the generation that grew up in the mid 60s across the world and rejected authority and greater good while embracing exploration of themselves (i.e., ‘me’). They taught their kids the same lessons. This has evolved in unexpected ways in society/culture and is also displayed in sports.

‘Twas the year the Jays had their two year streak beaten, yes? Wasn’t the season marred by a strike?

I think RTN called it.

Additionally, throughout history, people in a culture generally tried to imitate the top tier of that culture, by copying their manners, dress, etc. So even the poorest could demonstrate some refinement.

Now, it’s the other way round. Even the upper classes want to imitate the lowest rung of society. So the manners are crass and the trousers hang below the waist. The latter trend started in prisons before spreading to the wider world. That says it all.

Spectator sports are a complete waste of time anyway, like TV dramas and wanking. Sure they have their place, since we all need our mindless pleasures - but who can get pleasure from watching the current crop of ingrates?

CheeseWhiz, I didn’t realize everyone was a Mr. Pink wannabe! Wish I could set you all a better example.

Mr Pink, the Haka is a very specific thing, and you don’t understand the intent with which it is made, I am afraid. If they wanted to INSULT a team, they would not do a Haka, they would all turn their backs, and drop their trousers enough to reveal one buttock, which they would slap.

The Haka is done to offer respect to the team they will face. The thinking goes something like this. “We are going to fight you now. We are hard men, WORTH fighting, see our Haka. We promise to beat you, make your promise back to us”.

If you were NOT worth fighting, you sure wouldn’t be worthy of recieving a Haka.

Ever seen the All Blacks face Manu Samoa?. Tonga?. Fiji?, Papaua New Guinea?. Notice how both teams stand respectfully, manfully, and watch the others Haka?. See any idea in anyones face that an insult is being offered?.

And if you think the Haka is half-arsed, or not meant fully as I have explained, isn’t that proof that YOU lack comprehension, rather than my country lacking anything?.

I completely disagree that there was anything like following the “Top Tier” of society.
You guys have little faith in the intelligence of people if you think they would follow a mode of behaviour that had no reward. People played the game as sportsmen previously, because it was rewarding to be considered a “good sport”, not because they thought they might get mistaken for Rupert Chomodly-Walker from Eton.
Just as, when the meme was exported from the USA that “Winning is all that matters”, they didn’t think they might get mistaken for an American, people brought into it, they followed that mode of behaviour, because it was REWARDING, no-one punished them for being bad sports (Or too few people offered too little disapproval to be effective) and people (spectators, coaches, parents) who brought into the new idea, REWARDED the players for their bad sportsmanship.

In the end, it is only a way of thinking, I am sure neither way is “Moral” with a capital M, not some absolute. But again, that isn’t to say that this “new way” can not be traced back to a specific place.

It wasn’t “The West” that made the Japanese sports people consider a “loss” as worth shame, or tears.

As one who has actually stripped down and done the Haka with the All Blacks (possibly under threat of violence, though I was too drunk to remember), I will say that it has as little to do with this thread as do your “America is the evil ruler of the world” ramblings, Tigger. Really, it’s tiresome. Are we to believe that the rest of the world is filled with namby-pamby sheep that cannot help but imitate what they see as being “American?” I really wish you people would find something else to obsess over. It’s a joke when Canadians, Brits, Kiwis, whatever, spend more time talking (if ignorant ranting qualifies as talking) about the American medical system than they do their own, for example.

Getting hard to have a frigging conversation around here…..

I think that overoften sums it all up quite nicely.

Let’s get the discussion back to Japan.